Archive for the ‘the game’ Category

I’ve started noticing patterns in my interactions and one of them that stands out is that with most of the girls I’ve actually had sex with off of an online dating site, the setup prior to the date is pretty easy.  With the dates that never led anywhere, there was always either a scheduling conflict or a girl deliberately negotiates stuff for no reason at all.

I get a message on Saturday from this Russian girl on match.  I set up a meeting with her that same night.   I proposed that we meet at a certain bar at a certain time.  Not only did the bar in question not work for her, but she wanted to negotiate the exact time that we met.  I tried to do everything via text message but she insisted that I call.  So I call and propose a 9:30 meet and she’s all like “Can we meet earlier?” So I agreed at first to 9pm.  I was walking home from shopping so I texted her the address of the bar and she texts back, “Can we do midtown?” and I just text her back “no”.  She finally agrees with me but ends up being late anyway.  To make a long story short, I ended up  walking out of the date because the vibe was so bad.  She asked no questions, she said basically nothing at all for the 20 minutes we were together, and it was a pain in the ass to talk to her.  I finally told her I’m not really enjoying myself and wanted to leave.  So I pay the tab and get the hell out of there.

Now, this is kind of a worst case scenario example but things like this have happened on other dates that ended up just being “average”.  Whenever a girl starts negotiating or rescheduling, I know that my chances of sex on the first date go down precipitously.  She’s telling you how hard a lay she’s going to be.  Pretty much anytime I’ve had sex on the first date, 95% of the time the date is set on my terms.  She’ll meet at the time I propose.  She’ll be on time.  She’ll be flexible about her schedule.  The high maintenance girls take two or three dates, if that at all.  And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, she very well could be a “quality” girl that’s worth waiting it out a bit for (with quality being totally subjective).  The main disadvantage of online dating is that your value to her may be pretty low initially, even if you do have a decent look and profile.  The high maintenance girls present you with an upward battle, the ones that are really looking forward to meeting you are extremely compliant.

Well, maybe “high maintenance” isn’t the best word.  Let’s call them “busy bodies”…professional girls of a certain caliber with a demanding job and lots of side projects they are involved in (i.e organizations, yoga classes, running a 5k, whatever). With them, they try and “fit you in” to their schedule and that kind of stuff never pans out well.  I met a nurse a few weeks ago that’s up at 6:30 in the morning, so she was already time-constrained to a couple of hours by the time we met up one night.  She also couldn’t make it on the Monday we planned because she was sick.  On the other hand, a girl I’m currently seeing who works at a non-profit had a schedule where she was working from home the next Friday morning.  So it was pretty easy for me to invite her back to my place.  And she also didn’t have any trouble showing up on time (even though she came all the way from bk) , didn’t try to reschedule, and didn’t try to negotiate minor details.  Those three things are the main checkpoints I use now.

I’ve been a fan of therawness for awhile.  He just wrote what started out as relatively simple advice to a reader and then delved into the pathologies of the pickup artist.

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-1/

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-2/

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-3/

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/

That post is easily one of the most influential ones for me since http://postmasculine.com/pickup-artist.

The quote from Mark Manson that really got me thinking beyond rather simplistic notions (“how to get laid”, “how to escalate”, etc) was this one:

You don’t end up in the Pick Up Artist community unless you are incredibly unhappy or unsatisfied about something. It may be conscious, it may be unconscious. It may be short-term, or it may be deep-seated and long-term. But the fact is, the community acts for a lot of men as a diversion or scapegoat from dealing with their real issues — their emotional issues.

For about a year or maybe a bit more, I’ve viewed getting really deep into pickup as a sign of something else gone awry.  And through countless interactions with so many people involved in the same seduction community as I, that something else always relates to something psychological (addicted to validation, abandonment of some sort, fucked up trauma that leads to overcompensating in some way, etc).  So for me, I think I’m very self-aware and knew intuitively that delving into pickup and meeting guys off forums was just a symptom of something else operating in the background subconsciously.  A small minority of guys into pickup just need some quick tips, but I think most may have some huge psychological blind spots that they might not be dealing with.  Over time, people repress certain incidents and mentally minimize what may be significant so old memories become faint.  So while people may consciously be doing something on the surface to fix some sort of external problem (either no sex life at all or relationship problems),  things may still be lurking in their subconscious which if they don’t get solved, the external issue won’t go away either.

I always knew that most of my problems with women were related to something deeper than just the technical aspect of it so when I finally landed a job where going to therapy was an option, I found a therapist.  I can pretty much say for sure that talking openly about various childhood traumas I’ve gone through has helped my confidence tremendously.   And for 30 years, I never thought about how my relationship with my mother truly affected my interactions with females until I was able to talk about the nature of our relationship.  Here’s just an example jewel in “Reader Letters Part 4”

In this case the pneumonia represents low self-esteem and people-pleasing and insecurity and unresolved childhood isses that people develop while growing up. The symptoms include the inability to hook up with girls and get laid, the inability to assert oneself, the inability to have happy relationships, shyness, hypersensitivity, social anxiety, bad nerves, and other bad behaviors. PUA stuff gets you obsessed with fixing the symptoms (superficial behavioral tics) and not attacking the real sickness (low self-esteem, unresolved core issues from childhood traumas, faulty thinking patterns inherited from authority figures, etc.). The pickup artist prescription feels good at first, but it doesn’t attack the real self-esteem and insecurity issues and allows them to keep growing underneath the surface, so the moment you get some form of ego bruising or a setback, all the old feelings of low self-esteem and ego-bruising come rushing back to the forefront of your awareness.

I remember being at a rooftop bar in 2010 at some lair event.  I remember this weird sinking feeling I got when this Dutch girl I talked to earlier in the night was making out with some other guy extremely passionately in a corner around 3am.  I had something like a panic attack, like the situation itself was an attack on me, my self-worth, my core.  But a truly healthy man possesses a core strong enough to get over things like that fast.  The self-talk of a healthy guy is “I’m not her cup of tea, it’s not the end of the world” but for me at the time, somehow it was earth-shattering that this one random girl in the bar didn’t go home with me.   This absurd feeling was made worse because of the over-promised “magic pill” of various pickup products I was reading at the time.   One thing a lot of the gurus did that I give credit for is actually teaching what’s actually possible (i.e. you can go out and get laid the same night, you can have multiple relationships, etc).  What the mainstream gurus missed is the art of managing expectations.  People aren’t just instantly going to transform into a super playboy after reading a book.  The methods or techniques cause most people to put too much pressure on themselves and I was no exception to that.  Moreover, it’s dangerous territory when not being able to get a desired result with a random girl becomes a direct internal attack on your worth as a man.

More from therawness:

The right thing for these guys to do would be to deal with these core issues of low self-worth feelings and their inferiority feelings so that they can fix them once and for all. What pickup teaches them to do however is not to fix feelings but instead to switch from their current faulty coping strategy, which is surrender, to another faulty coping strategy of overcompensation. Using overcompensation, they repress these unwanted feelings with defense mechanisms so that they end up blocking themselves from consciously accessing this self-hatred. They learn to rationalize away and deny their feelings of low self-worth. They learn to  project away their feelings of inferiority and self-hatred onto others. (Ever wonder why pickup artists develop this fanatical hatred of beta males? It’s their hatred of the beta traits they fear still exist within themselves, so they try to destroy these unwanted traits by first projecting them onto other male targets and then destroying those other targets.)  They also learn to use another defense mechanism ofintellectualization to cope with these low self-worth feelings, which is where all the mental masturbation and books on evolutionary psychology, animal behavior, persuasion, sales, New Age thinking and success literature like Tony Robbins comes in (not that there’s anything inherently wrong with any of this literature but rather in the way they are being used in this speak instance as a way to avoid fixing core issues).

He makes other points about the inner game literature of the seduction community and how it’s basically all predicated around women instead of gaining confidence simply because it makes your life better, period. Another strong point is the fact that he brings up women’s shitty behavior.  There’s plenty of guys out there like me who decided to take the good from seduction advice and throw out the navel gazing stuff that in the long run harms self-confidence.  How can you be totally confident when you always think you did something wrong in some way?

Another problem with pickup that makes it sophisticated codependency  is the damaging belief that the outcome is always in your control when you’re a true alpha. It takes the codependent’s natural urge to blame himself and masks it as positive traits, like accountability, persistence, and social intelligence. See, everything that goes wrong with a woman is the man’s fault. He wasn’t alpha enough. He was too reactive. He didn’t give the right response. He didn’t stand at a 45 degree angle. He didn’t peacock enough. He didn’t “neg” her at the right level. He held his drink at his waist. He showed too much enthusiasm. He passed her first two shit tests, but caved at her third one. He didn’t properly build comfort before going for sex. He didn’t do the right things to create attraction. And so on and so on.

Meanwhile thanks to evolutionary psychology rationalizing, less things than ever are the woman’s fault.

Another blogger from Toronto (I think his name is Jake) puts it another way:

http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2009/10/its-not-always-your-fault.html

 Game essentially says that you are okay with whatever behaviour women display, because you will always find a way to overcome it. In other words, “game” is a coping strategy for women’s behaviour. If she only likes asshole jerks, then it’s your fault for not acting like an asshole jerk.

So in a nutshell, I’m right in the middle of the game versus anti-game crowd.  And the reason is that “Game” has no solid definition to begin with.  Some guys define game as tactics and techniques while others think game is simply working on your lifestyle and approaching more women.  If we’re going with the all-encompassing definition, things I’ve done for myself like get a higher paying job, get better clothes, move to NYC, exercise, and approach more women are all things that have improved my results with women.  If game means simply a series of routine stacks and mental masturbation on “state”, that’s where I get skeptical because certain sob stories on the internet about a guy approaching 5000 women and getting one lay out of it probably was working the hell out of a routine stack and neglecting other things that would make life much easier.

Rule Number one with online dating

Posted: February 15, 2012 in the game

A few friends of mine have been asking me for tips for getting dates from online dating sites.  And honestly, I can say with 100% assurance that a good picture was the biggest difference maker with me.  Around August 2011, I was out at a concert with a friend of mine.  One of these small social networking sites had a photographer there taking pictures.  A few days later, I went on the social networking site and saved my photo.  I liked the photo so much that I put it on my okcupid profile.  My results literally skyrocketed to maybe getting a date or two every couple of months to juggling 3 or 4 during the week.  I didn’t do a spreadsheet or anything to track ratios, but I was getting random “you’re handsome!” openers from women whereas beforehand I could barely get conversations flowing.  I’ve probably had more dates (more lays? debatable.  I’ve had a few good runs that rival right now) than I’ve ever had in my life.  It’s one thing to talk about outcome independence when dealing with women, but it’s a whole different story when it’s actually occurring in my head mentally that I’ll have another shot to get laid and start a casual relationship with another attractive girl the next day.

Okcupid even has studies about camera types and attractiveness.  So, if you’re a guy looking to do better with online dating, get a photographer with a DSLR or use your own.  It’s that important.  Women online are more shallow than they are in real life, there’s all sorts of studies that indicate that.    Just like a guy who wears his worst outfit to the club when he wants to pick up girls, it’s shooting yourself in the foot if you don’t have the best photos of yourself you can possibly take on whatever dating sites that you frequent.

Also, keep it simple and do about 1-3 pics.  I’d rather have one good pic than 3 pics where one is really good and the other one sucks.

 

About two weeks ago, I get a message from a little cute Japanese girl from OKcupid.  Her location said London, but she was in the city two weeks.  She wanted to meet up that same night.   Eventually, we meet up around 11pm, talk, and I invite her back to my house to listen to some music.  In short, I closed her probably within two hours of meeting her.

Last weekend, I took out a cute redhead on a 2nd date from POF who initially flaked on me.  The backstory about her is that:

I proposed a drink date and she was kinda doing the rescheduling thing via text.  I reassured her that we were only going to hang out for an hour or so to get to know each other.  After I said that, she texted “To be honest, I’m not interested in meeting up with anyone right now”.  I wished her well and that was it.  I deleted the whole text conversation and forgot about it.

About a month later, she texts me and asks if I want to hang out.  I honestly had been on a lot of various dates since then, and forgot about the whole thing.  I called her up just so I could remember who the fuck she was and then it clicked.  She was in the city kind of tipsy but asked to see me right then.  She wanted to meet in midtown but I insisted on her coming to my neighborhood.  We meet, make out, have a few drinks, and she payed a little bit of the bill because my card actually got declined! I make up a BS excuse about all of my christmas shopping and apologize.  She then comes up to my place for a few minutes to use the bathroom.  I try to turn on some music and we dance a bit, makeout some more.   She was trying to get out of there though, it was late, she was drunk as hell, and we both had to go to work.

We go on a 2nd date on Friday, this time with me taking her out to a restaurant (had a groupon though) and going to another bar for drinks.  She slept over but really wouldn’t let me do anything besides kiss her.

With the redhead, I’m wondering now if I went from Lover to Provider mode.  Been checking out Chase Amante’s blog post on paying for things.  I’m definitely going to keep it in mind if/when we meet again.   My card got declined and she ended up paying for a little less than half, and we still hung out the following Friday.  So, I’d rather be in the potential Lover category instead of starting things out displaying typical husband/boyfriend behavior.   The Japanese girl bought her own drinks.   I blew my opportunity with this blonde Dutch girl a few weeks ago after I got mad at her (long story, don’t feel like sharing).  But she was all over me at one point in terms of making out and kissing.  But she really really wanted to pay! I’m going to keep this in mind a bit more while dating so much. Women who want to pay tend to either do it out of politeness or they like me.

Validation seeking females

Posted: November 14, 2011 in the game

So Saturday night, I went out with a friend of mine to a local hipster-ish bar.  I was generally just laying in the cut the whole night, not doing that many approaches.  I think I only approached the ones I thought were insanely attractive and that’s it.  Online dating has taking the place of going to night venues in the pursuit of ass. I had a good time anyway, and got to know the bouncer of the place so I can get in the venue anytime I want even when they start denying other people.

So me and my friend are leaning against the wall near this dance floor enjoying a few beers.  He does an approach to this short nerdy girl and she just instantly starts dancing and making out with him.  It got kind of funny because usually, the random hookups and making out starts later on into the night and it was only like 12:30 and people were still coming to the bar.  So everybody ended up looking at them and laughing.  She was dancing with two other people and as usual, one of them taps her on the shoulder to get her attention.  After she makes out with him, she just walks away and mumbles something like, “sorry, but I have to go”.  And the funny thing about it is that she walked past him a few times after that, and I saw how she acted as if he didn’t exist.

We talked about the incident afterwards and he was really almost shocked at what happened.  He asked if that has happened to me or if I’ve seen something like that, and emphatically replied, “absolutely”.

  • Last time I went out to a rooftop bar, some girl I approached took one look at me and started making out with me.  When I tried to actually TALK to her, she didn’t say anything.
  • I was hanging with kickbomber one night and some girl was about to walk away from me, but grabbed me and tried to kiss me.  I denied her because I knew that’s all she wanted
  • The asian girl here…that make-out was probably within 2 minutes of meeting her.  And after she got her fill, she just left.
  • Went to some swanky bar about a month or so ago and made out with some Irish girl probably in a minute or so after she says something like “you’re lovely”

It goes on and on.  I’ve probably got about 5 or 6 personal examples of that since I moved to the city and plenty of random make-outs last year.  I’ve also seen it happen to plenty of other guys.  As men, we tend to want to process everything logically (“she kisses me, therefore she likes me and wants to get to know me”). Why do they do this kind of stuff? I think they just want some kind of validation and sexual satisfaction, and I think some of them are satisfied by that.  I remember these two aussie girls at a rooftop bar more than a year ago.  I ended up making out with one and the other one got jealous.  So all three of us go to the bar area to find a guy for her.  She ends up making out with a guy for about 30 seconds and walks away from him.  I recall her saying something like “all she needs is a fix” after she was done.

All that matters in these scenarios is if she finds the guy attractive.  So it serves as a boost to her self-esteem if she can make-out with some cute guy, but she has no interest in the guy at all beyond him fulfilling whatever validation she’s seeking at the moment.  Besides that, there’s the issue of looking slutty in front of her friends, which is why isolation is so key in most scenarios.  And it’s also why I think the girl who made out with my friend last night suddenly stopped after her friends tapped her.

There’s another type of validation-seeking female besides the one that does quick make-outs, and that’s the one that will make out with you for 20 minutes and won’t go home, won’t return your calls, nothing.  That’s why I’m generally leaning towards against making out with a girl at night in favor of touching and maintaining the sexual tension until I’ve got her at my place.  Of course, I say that as if that’s easy to do…especially if she’s attractive.

Online dating problem–solution

Posted: November 10, 2011 in dates, the game

In general, I’m liking my whole online experiment I’ve been doing for the last two months.  But, I think I’ve missed out on some key opportunities by being TOO aggressive and too outcome dependent (i.e I must have sex on the first date so I’m going to do what the community says: venue A, venue B, go for the pull at home).  A lot of the seduction community focuses on getting guys to escalate because a lot of guys (including myself) weren’t very touchy guys to begin with.  But once you get to a certain point to where taking a girl’s hand or kissing her neck isn’t a problem anymore, it’s time to calibrate a bit.  Online dating just requires a different physical model than girls you meet at night.

I recently came across blackdragon’s ebook and he’s got a different way of doing things to at least get sex by the second or third date.   The logic to just wait a bit is very simple

a) Even if she’s a slut and would gladly fuck you on the first date, she’ll gladly fuck on the second or third as long as the impression made was good.

b) over-escalate or try to pull a girl with “rules” like “no sex on the first date”, the chances to lose that girl increases.

The girl I’m currently seeing (the 2nd blonde girl I wrote about here) was strictly against fucking me the first time we met, but fucked me the second time.

So I’m just going to do some light touching on my first dates, limit the time spent, and keep them cheap as well.  I’m then going to try the standard long date of going to different venues and then going for the pull on the second or third date.  That’s the way I think to maximize my lays and then decide where I want the relationship to go.  Also, I’ve been inconsistent in writing about all of them, because I had three last week and only wrote about one (the Romanian)

okcupid is easier that night game

Posted: October 4, 2011 in dates, lays, the game

So I’ve still been going out and doing night game but I’ve been bored by it lately.  It just seems like going through the motions at times.  Various things have happened during the past few weeks to make me consider doing more approaches in the day time and/or only going out at night if it’s a social thing, not to “sarge”.  It’s honestly just making me misogynistic in a way because it’s like you’re looking at women at their best dressed combined with their worst attitudes thanks to a  alcohol and constant male attention.   I had a girl that I tried to approach walk up to me, make out with me, and leave without saying a word.  I had some other girl get all creeped out because I was at the bar alone one Friday night..and that’s after she started kissing my neck and making out with me.  Basically, I’m not excited by it anymore and probably need a few weeks off just to build up some anticipation and excitement for it.   Besides that, I’ve had some problems with the manager at my local spot, a spot I spend a lot of money at.

This 20 second clip summarizes my feelings about going out at night right now.

I started going hard on pof and okcupid 3 weeks ago and I like my results, 2 weeks 2 lays. Here’s a general breakdown

Went out with this tall, blonde, hipsterish girl.  We sent a few messages back and I asked her out pretty soon.  She actually accepts for that same Thursday night.   So we end up meeting at a bar but we leave so I could get a slice of pizza.  We then go to the hookah bar I’ve been taking my dates to.  We sit down, talk for about an hour, and then agree to go to another place.  I do a little bit of hand holding on the way just to see how comfortable she is with me.  We sit down at the other place and I go in for a little peck like 10 minutes in.  She starts touching my neck, touching my crotch, so I know it’s on but I didn’t do too much to kill the sexual tension.  While we were talking about music, she was talking about this group she really liked.  She suggested that we go dance at this place that we both talked about but I wasn’t for it.  I instead suggested that we go listen to her band and she got the innuendo.  So we grab some beers on the way to my place and then we go into my room.  I just load up my Pandora to play her music and she’s pretty relaxed.  I  close about 30 minutes in.

Last week, I went out with this short blonde girl.  I was very straightforward just like the last girl to get her out.  We set up a date for Thursday.  She comes to my area but ends up forgetting her id.  So instead of going to my planned hookah spot, I go get two bottles of wine.  My backup plan was to go to a BYOB hookah place but the owner ends up checking ID’s.  rats.  So instead I just go straight to my house and we chill in my room for about 4 hours or so.  As far as closing that night, it didn’t happen but she told me her weekend schedule was wide open.  So we meet on saturday, go out near her area,  and I slept over at her place and closed.

The first one is not going to be around at all, the second one probably will.  But honestly, the things I have to deal with when I’m out at night (cockblocking, rude staffs) don’t exist in online game so I’m going to keep it up.


 

wing philosophy taking shape

Posted: July 28, 2011 in the game

Here’s the mentality that I subscribe to totally when it comes to wings, I do it every once in awhile. I mean..especially when you’re out with a guy and you two look totally different in appearance, one guy might be so “in there” and then the other wing comes and the girls aren’t attracted to him at all and it kills the interaction.
I’ve had it happen in situations where I’ve introduced and really hyped up the guy, and even where I’ve tried to get a random “wingman” at the club in the set, thinking he’ll be cool. Girls may even not want to move with you because they fear that their friend will be “stuck” with your friend.

There’s such a small percentage of random girls that will hook and be attracted to the random two guys that just happen to approach them.

http://www.cliffslist.com/letter/give-wings-a-chance

http://krauserpua.com/2011/07/24/the-rat-pack-life-wing-rules-in-set/

Hardly anybody I’ve been out with  follows the common sense rules that Krauser so eloquently stated.

http://www.cliffslist.com/letter/aaron-sleazy-your-wingman-is-nothing-but-trouble

Bottom feeders too, guys who don’t approach whatsoever and who will leech off of your approaches are trouble too.  A ‘normal’ friend of mine (normal meaning someone not acquainted with all of the game literature out there) did that most of the time we were out.

And I’ve been in situations where I was “taking one for the team”…fuck that shit.  I don’t go out and get dressed up to fuck with some fat chick.  No real FRIEND would ask you to hang out with some fat chick while you try and score with the cute one.